Exponential Growth with Employee Advocacy

Taylor Wells (00:01.421)
Hey everyone, welcome to the GTM News Show. I got Nick here today. Hey Nick. I'm doing well, doing well. Thanks for coming on the show. So I wanted to invite Nick on. So Nick and I met probably, just kind of a little story for everyone. Nick and I probably met maybe a year and a half ago. He was working at Alice, and he was really active on LinkedIn and always offered to like spend time with folks and like share what he's learning from marketing and customer.

Nick (00:06.167)
Hey, how are ya?

Taylor Wells (00:31.461)
At the point I was running some customer marketing programs, advocacy programs, and so he offered to jump on a Zoom, and so we spent 30 minutes chatting. He shared a bunch of cool ideas. He was also able to share some about Alice and position Alice. And what I noticed, and the reason I wanted to bring Nick on was he has done a phenomenal job of really customer advocacy, employee advocacy, and really leveraging.

his own personal brand to promote his company, the companies he's worked at, and drive new revenue for them. But then on the flip side, and we'll kind of catch up to a year and a half later where he's at now, how he's been able to build his own personal brand, start his own company, and right off into the sunset. And so first, I kind of want to talk about, Nick, let's talk about kind of the company side and customer advocacy. What have you seen successful in Cisco, actually a couple months ago?

Taylor Wells (01:28.137)
I think one of their executives said that they were going to train 84,000 employees on how to be LinkedIn influencers and leverage LinkedIn. I think even as we go into this AI world, this new era of AI, building relationships and one-to-one interactions, people buy from people. That's always been the same. But I think it's even more so when we get into this even more. It's going to be hard to know what's real on the internet.

I'd love to hear from your perspective, what have you seen from an employee advocacy standpoint? How has it been beneficial for the companies you've worked at? You advocating for them on LinkedIn, et cetera.

Nick (02:06.566)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a win-win ultimately, but it needs to start from the top. Like you need to have these leaders that are empowering to their employees to want to even go down this path. And so if you don't have an executive, like a CEO or executive team that maybe is active on LinkedIn, it's hard to be like, hey, I'm an employee. Like I see the personal value in it, but like as an employee, you may not see the value in creating content

LinkedIn, and some people are like, well, why would I do this if my team isn't even doing it? So I think you need to see the empowerment, which is why the Cisco thing is so interesting to me, because it's like, listen, they see this as a huge investment in both time.

in value. They know it's a marathon, it's not a sprint, but if they can invest in their people, if they can empower their people to ultimately be their evangelists, it's a win-win. They get to grow the business, bottom line, profit goes up, revenue goes up, all those things, shareholders are happy. The employees also get to take on hopefully additional responsibilities down the road. They

Nick (03:22.116)
podcasts, all these different types of things. So it's a win-win, but if you don't start from the top through empowerment, it's never gonna be successful. And I think that was one of the biggest things that I've seen after working in B2B tech for the last like 12 years. And I've only been active on LinkedIn really these last four, but it starts from the top and it starts with the empowerment piece or else it just all crumbles besides that.

Taylor Wells (03:46.909)
Mm-hmm. Well said. I love that and having that leadership and because it is kind of a it's a weird It's a weird air arena to go into right? Like I think it's one thing to post your own content and your own thoughts but to represent the company on You know with cancel culture with all these, you know, huge push backs if you if you mess up So maybe any thoughts on that of like what have you seen and maybe some best practices or maybe from the top? but even you know

ways employees can protect themselves when they go out there. Any thoughts in that whole arena? Love to hear your thoughts there.

Nick (04:22.21)
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I've actually done a lot of like LinkedIn trainings for companies and that this is one of the biggest questions that comes up. What if I have like a rogue employee that just starts like trashing the company or telling our secrets, all these things. And I'm like, well, I don't think you need a handbook per se for like how to act on LinkedIn. Listen, we're all adults.

Hopefully we do this. If there's issues, you can discipline that person as need be, terminate them if you have to. But we're all adults. I think we understand what we should and what we shouldn't talk about in a public and professional setting, hopefully. Or if not, there's bigger issues there, I think. I think one of the biggest things is just setting boundaries to a certain degree, but.

being okay to let the creativity come out from beyond that. So if you wanna be like, hey listen.

I don't care what you talk about, just don't bash the company, don't talk about secrets, don't talk about financial numbers, whatever it is. Cool, that's all a fail game. I get that. I would never talk about those things publicly either if I'm not allowed to. But if I can talk about the projects that I'm working on, the stuff that is cool, the successes I've seen, the failures I've seen, I don't think that bashes the company. I think it only showcases how your mind works as an employee, which honestly is going to lead you to future opportunities.

at other companies because no one stays at the same company anymore as long as they used to. I think I was reading something like a couple weeks ago that was saying that B2B marketers today on average stay at companies for 18 months. That's kind of like the average like and this is like director and manager level people. So 18 months in B2B tech.

Nick (06:08.982)
Which is pretty interesting, and that was a 2023 survey, I forget where I read it, but I was like, oh, it's so fascinating to me, which makes sense because CMOs also have a pretty low tenure as well, but.

Taylor Wells (06:14.245)
Fascinating.

Nick (06:20.246)
That's why, again, have your boundaries cool, but there's no downside to this. It's just the creativity piece. Some people don't feel comfortable putting their thoughts out there because of the cancel culture. Listen, there's always gonna be imposter syndrome. There's always gonna be mental barriers that you need to overcome. But the first thing that I told myself is when you hit publish on anything, a blog post, a social media post, whatever it is, there's gonna be people that judge you. And that's okay, because you're...

and who you are isn't for everyone. And you will find your tribe, you will find the community of people that want to be with you, that find value in who you are as an individual. And ultimately, all those things will rise together.

Taylor Wells (07:08.441)
Mmm, I love that and even on that last note as far as the imposter syndrome or the fear I think what's really cool about creating content is you usually attract people that are like you right? You'll get those folks that are like, oh, you know, I vibe with taylor's or nick's personality I vibe with you know, and there's I don't there's probably something really deep in like, you know, um You know that in our psyche that just connects with people that are like us obviously we can't even quantify it or even

articulated obviously. But as you do that, you'll attract those people and you don't even need, and that's why I think there's like some amazing creators out there and they attract other amazing folks. And then there's also creators out there that don't create great content, but they still attract an audience because they're attracting people that are like them, right? And so there's this weird, no judgment obviously, but there's this weird world where you can, you'll attract people like you based upon how you.

your personality and whatnot, especially in this AI world. Like so much of it's going to be about personality and your story and your values and all that fun stuff. And we can probably talk about content for hours. Um, but I love to dive a little. Oh yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Nick (08:18.062)
Well, I was gonna say real quick to that one piece. So like, you have to have a POV. You have to stand for something because of how noisy today's world is. And like, just like you said, like AI, all this stuff. I mean, LinkedIn is just AI comments, AI content. Like it's easy to spot out, honestly. But if you don't stand for something, if you don't have a unique POV on like how you approach either...

category, thoughts, whatever it is. You're just gonna get drowned in the noise out there.

Taylor Wells (08:52.645)
Hmm. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. Having a point of view that's differentiated and even, you know, based upon your perspective and your story. Um, I work with this SEO agency and we've talked a lot about how, um, you know, your, uh, your perspective, uh, in your content is actually was differentiating your stories, how you actually provide content that is not all the content, but just for time.

people that have time restrictions, right? So creating content that's actually super impactful just based upon the time constraints everyone has. And so I love all that, it's super cool. I'd love to kind of go back a little bit in regards to the company side. What have you seen? What are some of the successes you've seen driving revenue or traffic? Or what are some of the things you've seen with the companies you've worked at when you were doing? And I also love to talk about maybe some of the content because I'm sure it wasn't all.

You know, like how we got connected wasn't about a gifting platform when you're working at Alice, right? We got connected on customer marketing, which ties into it tangentially. And eventually it got to that. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on the benefits from the company side and why they should encourage it.

Nick (10:02.486)
Yeah, yeah, so I've been kind of like operating under this at three companies. So at a company called Clary, that's actually where I like got my start. So Kyle Coleman, he's the now CMO at Clari. He was my boss at the time. That's how I kind of got started on this whole like LinkedIn journey and like talking about field marketing initially, because that was like what I did for years. It was what I was known for. No one knew like the misconceptions of what it was or like how it actually impacted a revenue organization.

because of Kyle, I actually got started down that journey. So, Clari saw a lot of success. I think where I finally saw some mega success was actually with Alice. So, I was there for two years. In the two years that I was there, I drove $2 million in self-reported attribution pipeline that I could.

track specifically from my LinkedIn profile. 60% of that two million, so 1.2 million, actually closed. So like $1.2 million at a zero cost outside of my salary. And again, I would say 95% of my content never actually talked about Alice gifting, direct mail, anything like that. It was just projects that I was working on. It was customer marketing, it was ABM. It was just all the different things that we worked on, but ultimately, it...

built trust in people, where it's like, hey, listen, I click my profile, I see where I work, or I'm in these communities, people are like, hey, I do have a need for this, or hey, I'd love to learn more, and maybe I'm not a buyer right now, but what's to say, six months, a year down the line, you're not a buyer. I still have people to this day that message me, like, hey, I actually just requested a demo of Alice, I know you haven't been there in a little bit, but you were how I initially got them

Nick (11:50.448)
on my radar. I just find that so fascinating to me because again, I never talked about the company and now, I mean, I haven't been there for...

what a while, probably about a year and a half or so. And like people are still referencing that a year and a half later. And then I went to AirMeet and again, my boss who's now my co-founder Mark Killens, we did this at AirMeet and again, him and I used a very similar approach. We used the same playbook and we were able to drive a ton through self-reported attribution, not only through me, but we were seeing stuff through him. I started to get additional people on the team to be able to do that.

and you can create kind of like an army of all these little like evangelists, think about how much one, that saves you on paid media spend, but two, like how much of a reach you can actually get. Now listen, I know like the algorithm on LinkedIn is crushing everyone, it's crushing me, I'm seeing like a 60% drop, but.

It doesn't matter, if you have 20 people like me within a company, you're still gonna see amazing results. And I think it's just like getting started on like, what does that journey look like? Who's going to be the point person for this entire journey? And ultimately, how are you gonna capture the data and the stuff that comes in? I think self-reported attribution, at least from my point of view, has been the easiest way to do it. I know attribution's another whole conversation, but that's how I've been able

at now three companies and now honestly off on my own as well.

Taylor Wells (13:23.985)
Oh Nick, that's so cool. I got like goosebumps just talking through because it sounds, it's amazing. I mean, even if you got 10% of the results you got, that would still have been a net positive. You based upon like how much, especially SaaS companies spend on marketing and sales and acquiring new customers. Like not only the ripple effect, I mean, we're talking, we brought up Alice multiple times in this show, like, and it has nothing to do with, right? And so as nothing, we're not talking about gifting at all, but just the ripple effects of that. And I think what,

What I noticed in my interactions with you was what was really powerful, and maybe I love to hear any additional thoughts on this, was the content you shared, you said it, wasn't even about gifting or the platform. 90% of it was. Maybe a little bit was, right? And you kind of had some of that in there. And it was maybe two or three degrees away from the product, or even like seven degrees away, right? It had nothing to do with the product at all, but you built trust with people, right? You build rapport. You're like, hey, this Nick guy is cool.

Like that's how I jumped on a call with you. I was like, hey, this guy knows what he's talking about in the customer marketing world or he's doing all these cool things. I'd love to pick his brain. Really far removed. And I'd love to hear your thoughts just for like folks that are getting started with maybe creating content or if a company is encouraging creating content, how do you think about, because I think what's so fascinating is it's like, it's almost, it's not reverse psychology, but it is a form of.

you're, everyone's expecting to be pitched, right? Everyone's expecting to get a like, oh, Nick works for Alice and he's gonna talk about gifting platform and here's his pitch on it, or even best practices, right? And you kind of get numb to that and you're like, okay, he's obviously just promoting, he has a bias and it's gonna be tilted towards that. So you're built trust because the content has nothing to do with your product. Any thoughts on that, like how you can encourage folks to get started with creating content that has nothing to do with your product?

Nick (15:15.638)
Yeah, I think it's just talking about the projects and the campaigns that you're working on, honestly. So I've always, as a field marketer, been really close to the customer. So at Alice, when they asked me to do customer marketing, I never did customer marketing before, officially, but I was like, all right, cool, I get it. We're in a downturn, the economy's crap. This is a great way to save my job.

Nick (15:42.642)
I was like, you know what, I just wanna talk about the stuff that I'm working on. And I can't tell you how incredible the customer marketing community was out there. The people that have been doing this for 10, 20 years that I turned to for questions, for advice, for feedback in these communities that I was in. And ultimately, it helped me build a lot of my initial campaigns. And those campaigns saw some decent success. And again, this was someone that has never officially done this before.

to do was just showcase the different types of projects that I was working on. Again, going back to the successes, the failures, no one on LinkedIn likes to talk about failures. They think it's like some like black sheep of the family type thing where it's like, listen, like it's okay to talk about failures because I guarantee you that successful campaign probably had 20 failures behind it, but you didn't talk about those. You talked about the success. But what about the failures? How can you take those lessons learned and actually propel yourself forward to not only

Nick (16:41.997)
but help everyone else that's listening to you because even if they're not liking your content on LinkedIn or you're commenting, because when I got started, like no one liked my stuff. Like it was, it was like basically silence for months. And.

The majority of LinkedIn people are lurkers, and you wouldn't believe it how many lurkers are out there that are consuming your content, and you're writing because you enjoy it, you're writing because you want to, you're writing because you're hopefully, hopeful that it will help someone else. Those lurkers are consuming that, and it's helping those people. And they're never gonna tell you, unless they DM you, but.

That's how I found out about a lot of these things. I got DMs from people that were like, hey, I'll never like your content, I'll never comment on it, it's not my thing, I don't wanna be out in the public. But I just wanna say thank you because this was incredibly helpful. That's my motivation for continuing to do what I did.

Taylor Wells (17:27.653)
Hmm.

Taylor Wells (17:34.289)
Mm-hmm. That's cool. I can totally resonate with that and relate where I get people even like friends or people like that like I saw that I'm like Oh, why don't you like it? First of all, you're my friend. No, I just joking but Yeah, there's that there's that element at where there's yeah so and I do it too like I consume content never like it or comment or whatever for whatever reason and so definitely guilty of that and then you also see back to your story originally the ripple effects of Your advocacy and years down the road, right? People are still

Nick (17:42.286)
Thank you.

Taylor Wells (18:03.501)
reaching out to your former employers and the benefit of that, super powerful. Like it just, I don't think people can really, really understand like the power of that. And there's no way to quantify it too. And to your point about self-report attribution, maybe just like one minute on this, your thoughts on self-report attribution, if no one's ever heard of that, how do you, how would you go about measuring some of these initiatives?

Nick (18:27.198)
Yeah, so pretty simple. On your demo form, when people go to fill out a demo on your website, there's a, usually people have it as a dropdown. It's like, how did you hear about us? And there's a dropdown of like 10 options, like Google or internet or podcasts or whatever it is. As marketers, we like to put people in boxes. It's, I think there's a better way to do it. And honestly, I take no credit for this. Chris Walker is the first person that I heard that ever kind of like talked about this years ago. And so on your demo form,

get rid of that, keep the how did you hear about us, make it a required field, but have an open text box there so people can talk about exactly how they heard about you. Maybe they heard me and you talking right now and then they went on the website, they listened to another event. There could be three or four things that in my past, there was people that put down six or seven different things that led them to that initial demo request that we would never have captured. Maybe a salesperson or SDR or BDR

piece of that on a initial discovery call, a qualification call, but usually not. And I think there's so much value in doubling down on the channels that then people are already hearing about you on. It's just you have to capture that info and do something actionable with it.

Taylor Wells (19:46.553)
Very cool. I love it. Yep, super helpful. I think, yeah, I've used that in multiple companies I've worked in and great, great way to kind of supplement marketing automation attribution and have kind of a clearer picture on what's going on. You definitely get some really interesting insights on that, super cool. Just kind of a couple more points on the company side. I'd love to hear from you. So I heard obviously start with the leadership. The leadership needs to post, they need to engage as well. They kind of need to set the example, which I think it's a great.

great advice in general for any business, when you're trying to do anything new, you talked about folks talking about things that have, you know, talk about their projects, you talked about failures, you know, things they're struggling with, and even you'll get help. That's the cool thing too, like you got tons of help with your community, you'll do better at your job. Like if employers are thinking about this, like not only is it great to advocate your, you know, to advocate your products or services, but you're gonna get, your team is gonna get the help they need, they're gonna get the community and support they need when they start sharing.

what's working, what's not working, and build that community. So really cool additional benefit of you'll solve more problems in your business if your employees are active in their community. And then you talked about, you know, imposter syndrome, anything else kind of high level, like you advise other companies on how to get started with this, you know, posting once a week, a Slack group where everyone's sharing and a pod. Yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts there.

Nick (21:11.754)
Yeah, so I think one additional benefit that I actually forgot to mention is hiring. Hiring and recruiting, honestly, which again, right now, not many companies are hiring, although I am seeing more companies, like people getting new jobs on LinkedIn, so that's exciting. Hopefully the economy's bouncing back. But like...

Nick (21:30.618)
So, for example, let's take Alice as an example. So like when we had new roles and I posted about those roles and people knew who I was, we would get so many applications for those specific roles. And then the beauty is, cause let's be honest, you're not gonna stay at these companies, you're gonna get better opportunities, you're gonna go, maybe you become a VP of marketing or a CMO, you continue to move up in your career. The thing that's gonna happen is when you leave and your role opens to backfill,

you're gonna have so many people who not only want the role because they learned so much while you were there that they're gonna be like, wow, this brand's amazing. I wanna work for them. It's just like, it becomes a flywheel that people just wanna be involved because they saw so much awesomeness over the years from the people that were creating content that it seemed like a place that they wanted to be. And I think that was an initiative, that's another benefit that companies should think about. When it comes to getting started,

I definitely think a Slack group internally is the way to go, because you're going to need someone to champion this and be the point person to pull this all together. And again, I've seen this be multiple people. I've seen it be a CMO. I've seen it be a VP of marketing. I've seen it be a social media manager. So it really depends who you want that point person to be, but they're going to be the one that answers all the questions, that helps kind of handhold a little bit to get started.

Nick (22:58.16)
because so many people want to create content, want to get started, but have no clue how to actually do it. So you help them, like, hey, what are you passionate about? What are you working on? And you use this as a way to help them brainstorm the ideas that they want to be able to get started. And then they start to get it after maybe a couple weeks, maybe a couple months, depending what it is. But I've seen this work for engineers. I've seen this work for marketers, finance people. Doesn't matter the department. They just need a little bit of handholding to be able to get started.

you can use it as an amplification tool as well. Like listen, hey, drop your LinkedIn posts inside of our Slack channel, and the entire company can rally behind you, get behind it, which is gonna give you a nice little boost to get started. And don't feel like your content isn't making a difference if no one likes your stuff. Because again, that's the biggest issue that I see is like people post and they don't see those like fancy vanity metrics that people think

matter, but they drop off because they're like, oh, no one's reading my stuff. Trust me, people are reading your stuff. You have to keep going. You have to consistently show up every single day, whether that means posting, whether that means commenting on other people's stuff. Like it's a two-way street ultimately.

Taylor Wells (24:16.989)
Well said. Great, great piece of advice. I love to hear your thoughts just real quick on community led growth. We talked about like big, big communities like LinkedIn. Any thoughts on how employees can participate in all these micro communities? I know you have attacked, which we can talk about here in a second as well, too. And I love to hear about. Yeah. Is it is there anything different about how they interact with or any thoughts on interacting in all these micro communities that we see now?

Nick (24:44.79)
Yeah, so funny enough, we've actually built kind of like a three stage maturity model for like how we see community led growth, member led growth, customer led growth, all these things. But going to like community led growth specifically, and I actually made a post about this today is like seven steps to get started with like a community led approach. That hopefully people, funny thing is no one sees my content on LinkedIn anymore. Like I feel like I'm back to like where I was four years ago where I get like 700 impressions.

who I got angry at LinkedIn or whatever but like no one sees my stuff anymore so but I did make a post about that but when I think about like stage one it's all about

listening and engaging in the places where your buyers and customers are participating. Maybe it's a community like Peak, for example. Maybe it's Demand by MetaDay. Like, you're, or maybe you're in IT and it's like a DevOps community or something. Like, you have to find where your buyers and customers are participating and you meet them there by listening and engaging. How can you add unique perspectives and value to the conversation to ultimately form a relationship? Because again, going back to like what you said, people buy from people.

from the voice of the person, not the brand. I think as you start to think how this evolves from one to two to three, when you get to three, it's really about establishing really a set of rituals, habits, how do you continually engage in the right places with the right offers? But.

It's not about just like going out and pitching your stuff. It's like how do you partner with brands and people to accelerate relationship building? That's ultimately what we wanna do. You want to build relationships and then ultimately you want to accelerate those relationships. So you have to design a model that measures and predicts engagement and ultimately like the leads. And so there's the middle piece there which is really like how do you partner? But it's like.

Nick (26:38.814)
Step one, which is really stage one for us, and then like stage three. And I mean, you can get even deeper than this, but I think it's a good starting point for people.

Taylor Wells (26:47.597)
I love it. That's super cool. And I'm going to go check out that post and, uh, on your profile. Cause I'm curious more about that. And I think, especially with all these social media platforms, I mean, I'm sure there'll be another one. I'm sure LinkedIn may, we'll have a resurgence down the road. I'm sure there'll be another platform that people can engage on. But, um, if, if you, yeah, if you're not getting tons of traction on LinkedIn or if it's taking a while or, you know, you want to do more, I think these other communities are a way to supplement it and engage even more so, and even more targeted and even more.

Less noisy I found all these different communities and whatnot. So it's definitely a way to do both It's definitely different. But yeah, please. Yeah

Nick (27:22.082)
Well, can I add one more thing as well?

So I think going back to just how LinkedIn, again, like the reach and everything, I think it's important to figure out how do you activate and grow audiences with owned media, ultimately. If you think about the digital landscape, brands and people, you've got to meet your audiences where they are, on owned media platforms. But owned media represents a powerful opportunity to grow your ideal customer base. So ultimately, how do you take, how do you ideate owned media content that

reaches your target personas, how do you distribute and promote your owned media assets, and then how do you measure benchmark performance of your own channels? But ultimately, you need to get off all of these borrowed media to a certain degree, and you need to get them to owned media, because again, you control the owned media at the end of the day.

Taylor Wells (28:19.797)
Well said Nick we've had a couple episodes on that conversation of versus the paid and rented media and getting folks Yeah onto your assets and pushing them that way you can own that relationship and whatnot We need to have you back on because we probably could talk for another hour And we're about on out of time here in one or two minutes. I love to hear so we've talked about like all the successes Of your bit of the companies you work for Where are you today? What has?

you contributing and building your own personal brand. What has it created? And love to hear just about tact and people first growth, which you've kind of hinted at here in our last couple of minutes.

Nick (28:58.518)
Yeah, absolutely. So, Mark.

Killins and I, so he was at HubSpot, he was at Drift, and then we worked together at AirMeet. We co-founded TAC, which is honestly, it's a media and on-demand go-to-market firm, ultimately. And we have three core pillars. So we have a media network, which is gonna be launching on November 2nd. We have a membership component, which is ClubPF. So we have about 130 paid members within this community right now. And then we have TAC GTM, which is really like the marketing services

So fortunately we've been lucky enough. We have about 11 clients right now All of them have come inbound through the content that both mark and I have created over the years We're very fortunate But everything that we do puts people first go to market at the center of it And so like a simple definition of people first go to market is a business strategy that uses Relationships and partnerships to create capture and convert demand into revenue But it's designed to put people at the center of every

interaction and experience. And so, so many people are stuck in that company first mindset, which is like the old way. So it's like brand spam, lead quantity, transactional, on your own. And then there's a bunch of ways why B2B go to market must evolve. But the new way is this people first. So it's like meaningful interactions. It's all about creating demand, relationships, and ultimately partnership, partnership centric, which is like everything that you should do when you go to market should be with

someone not on your own anymore.

Taylor Wells (30:33.673)
Oh, that's awesome, Nick. And I love that. I think even going back to the world of AI, the relationships are gonna be even that much more important. It's been really cool to watch your journey. I'm a member of TACT in your community. Really excited to see where you all are going. Thanks for coming on. How can folks follow you on LinkedIn or other places?

Nick (30:54.41)
Yeah, yeah, definitely, you know, Nick Bennett on LinkedIn, although there is a couple of Nick Bennett's on LinkedIn, we get confused a few times, but Nick Bennett from Tac. Follow me there, ask me questions, check out tacgtm.com. Yeah, I mean, honestly, I'm always open to conversation, so shoot me a DM, happy to chat.

Taylor Wells (31:13.329)
Thanks, Nick. Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. Really fascinating conversation. I'll have to have you back on, like I mentioned. Thanks, everyone, for listening, and we'll see you next week. Thanks again, Nick.

Nick (31:22.935)
Thank you.